Like magic, the following is Ken’s masterful scientific study regarding the bloodlines of Llewelyn Fawr and you will Joanna Leave a comment
Simply ‘Ellen’s’ identity remains a puzzle, here seems to be zero-you to definitely called Ellen or Helen, but maybe an enthusiastic ‘Eleanor’ for the Joanna’s side (Eleanor from Aquitaine, mom of Joanna’s dad King John)
Hello, folk. It’s it really is interesting; what i wouldn’t keeps given to gain access to this article twenty-five years ago when i try evaluating and you can composing Here Become Dragons!
The key purpose of that it exercising is to test, from the a look at genealogist’s feedback on the subject and by consulting particular recognized amazing supply, to choose who was the mother of Gwladus Ddu ferch Llywelyn. Try she Joanna, spouse out of Llywelyn abdominal Iorwerth (Joan Plantagenet: Created circa.1188, passed away. March 1237) or is actually she Tangwystl ferch Llyarch of Rhos, domme out-of Llywelyn, produced circa. 1168, died??
I am going to follow this that have a secondary analysis to the you can easily life from good ded Susanna, provided out over King Henry 111 just like the an excellent hostage when you look at the 1228 along with her child custody being granted in order to Sir Nicholas Verdun and his partner Clementia.
The brand new viewpoints of Genealogists that we have learned are only you to, opinions, and additionally they disagree significantly. Zero chosen evidence can be acquired either way, but i have to state that the majority keep to possess Gwladus to get the brand new child regarding Joanna. This is also true of your own genealogists of your own descendants out-of the De- Braose relatives, nonetheless they ily to-be linked with both Welsh and you will English royal properties!
The following list of Llywelyn’s several legitimate and you will illegitimate college students appears to be essentially approved of the all of the genealogists which i provides studied apart from distinctions more if or not # 9 really existed. The fresh new dates regarding delivery the following also are debated by the some:
- Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, produced circa.1199, died 1244
- Gwladys Ddu ferch Llywelyn, born circa.1206, passed away 1251
- Ellen (Helen, Elen) ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1206? died circa 1253,
- Margred (Margaret) ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1208? Sao luis in Brazil wives passed away circa 1263,
- Dafydd ap Llywelyn, Prince off Wales, born circa 1208 (1211?) (second thoughts about it date, find afterwards), died twenty five February 1246,
- Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1209 died 1281.
- Angharad ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1210, died 1257
- Tegwared ap Llywelyn – created circa 1210, you can easily dual so you can Angharad?
- ‘Helen’, or ‘Susanna’, born circa 1214? Passed away 1259?
There clearly was far dispute over the identity of your mothers out-of such college students. There can be general agreement the simply specific pupils away from Llywelyn’s age Prince from Wales and you may Ellen (Helen) exactly who partnered (1) John new Scot, child of your earl away from Chester and (2) Robert de- Quincy. Although thoughts are split along the moms and dads off Gwladus, Gwenllian, Margred and you can Susanna, almost all of the genealogists I’ve learnt slim on the its mom getting Joanna.
This is partly using their going times from beginning since well as their marriage ceremonies to several marcher lords whom, one supposes, could have found so you’re able to fall into line their houses to that particular of its neighbor, the brand new Prince off North Wales and his spouse, the new queen away from England’s daughter. It is believed such lords of March wouldn’t have obtained plenty attention or political inspiration in the marrying off the sons on illegitimate daughters regarding good Welsh prince that have an effective Welsh lady.
As to the labels of these people, whether from the Joanna, Tangwystl or anybody else, they were all called shortly after people in Llywelyn’s family members:
Ken, we’re entirely on your own debt
Llywelyn’s mother is actually entitled ‘ed ‘Susanna’ of Gwynedd. His paternal granny is titled ‘Gwladus’. The parents out-of his grandma Susanna, was ‘Gruffudd’ ap Cynan and ‘Angharad’ of Flint and you may one another the labels received to Llywelyn’s children. So it Susanna and had a cousin entitled ‘Gwenllian’, a comparable label since Llywelyn’s great-grandmother.
